Topic: to-do deadlines ... again

@jrasta , point taken and so for all the others.
I just give my view, only to counter more features and complexity.
I believe in simplicity and that doesn’t mean 100 features/buttons that you can turn off or on.
For example the extended private features that are asked in this forum, which I also counter.
Including integration of 37s apps. I believe in the specialized carpenter tools approach of Jason.

I believe the discussion we are are having is a great input for 37s meetings.

Maybe it’s time that Jason comes back in the field to get the game going again.

Oh and don’t forget we are the only 20 “fools” to give feedback here, the other 500.000 are just doing there projects without to-do completion dates….

I love basecamp as it is today, don’t add features anymore, my clients have even problems to turn off there computers… (did you know you have to click START on a windows machine to turn it off ;-)

I don’t want to be right, just give my opinion as a customer out of the #thousands

Topic: to-do deadlines ... again

Somehow this always ends up in a debate of PM methodology. Can’t we agree that each of us can find the best way to manage our unique projects?

And what an assumption to make – that somehow those asking for To-Do dates are supervisors with trust issues. Geez. That smacks of someone who has a difficult time looking at Basecamp through any lense but his own.

Basecamp is used for so many things. And likewise, a To-Do can be almost anything. I do think there are circumstances where To-Do dates would be a great help.

• What if it’s used to schedule minor-but-time-sensitive tasks (a piece of equipment on-set at a video production, for example)?
• What if it’s not controlled by an iron-fisted supervisor, but used by the team itself to organize themselves in an attempt to meet a Milestone?
• What if it’s used to establish closer collaboration with a client to whom you don’t want to give full “plus Milestones” permissions?
• What if it’s part of an effort to simplify the Milestones calendar to make it more useful to those looking for an overall picture of workload and resources across the entire organization?

Topic: to-do deadlines ... again

I have the same vision and working method as Ben Kinnaird

- Backpack is our knowledge base and office calendar (don’t use it for reminders yet)
- Milestones is what you promise to others (clients or a colleague)
- To-do’s is what you promise yourself, so you need to plan that – not a supervisor.
- Highrise I use for off project things, people stuff – reminders – new business – the plumber

But I most agree on the Trust thing, if you delegate and trust your staff, they will organise themselfs and it creates way more responsibility then when I tell them when a to-do (small part of a project) must be done.
BTW our rule is that a to-do can not be more then 4 hours work and mostly minimum 1 hour.
So in general you only can do 20-30 to-do’s in a week. Anybody can handle that.
The small tiny ones (phone call, email, payment, fax) I manage in Highrise.

My point earlier is that people who ask for this feature are probably supervisors that want to overview and organise other peoples work.

I respect them but we don’t work like that and I believe 37s either. That’s why this feature is not here yet.
It’s about vision not a fill in box.

Topic: to-do deadlines ... again

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Topic: to-do deadlines ... again

I do actually agree with JPB. for most of our projects the way Basecamp works is in line with how me and my people work.

As a project manager I don’t care when people do things but I do care that the milestones are being hit. How do I manage this? Trust. I trust people to do things when they need to be done. If they don’t do it then they are not doing what we hired them for. I know that most dates originally assigned to todo items would change a lot and actually cause me more hassle. Yes I could choose not to use them but other people would and this would clog things us and slow them down.

Just as an aside. We mange what people do each week by getting them to take an hour or so on Monday to just run through everything they have to do for the week and popping this into a notes (a just a paragraph for each project). We don’t keep these notes in BC as all the Todos are in there, the note is just a method to focus the mind on the key things and helps remind them of other things to add.

However for some projects I can imagine that people may want to assign specific dates to things. I manage this in the following way.

Calling people, meetings and quotes. Here I use Highrise tasks. As I make promises to people about when they get quotes, when I meet them and more importantly when I will call to discuss the quote.

Quick reminders that don’t need to be logged or stored – Backpack, perfect for this. Just bang in the note to remind me ‘3pm call Sue before she goes on holiday re URL’. Yes I could use Highrise but these reminders are important to do but not important to log or store for later.

I think (and I might be wrong, don’t shout too loud) people want todo complete dates but I think they actually need todo reminders. Cos the todo is the important item but sometimes you just need a kick to remember to do it. This I could find useful but don’t feel it is the same as Todo dates which are like milestones, hard and fast must be done by dates.

Therefore… It would be nice to allow people to push a todo item’s text through to Backpack reminders (if they have an account).

Saying all of this. BC works for me and I can see it may not for other people. But I am glad the 37s take the stance they do (most of the time) because it helps me work better.

Topic: to-do deadlines ... again

I don’t buy this all-or-nothing, end-of-Basecamp-as-we-know-it prediction, as if 37s (and, we, the devoted user base) will suddenly abandon the principles of usability and simplicity if, god forbid, To-Dos have dates.

And it’s not as if 37s is against enhancing the product. Remember Comments via email and Milestone/To-Do Comments? Those were cheered by many as long overdue and panned by a few as a step away from simplicity.

For some reason, To-Do dates isn’t viewed as important or necessary by the powers that be. But to those PMs and business users whose projects/businesses would be better run with more granular scheduling, the addition of dates for To-Dos would be a huge move towards simplicity, versus the convoluted Greasemonkey/drag-and-drop/adding-custom-text solutions they must to use today (which, by the way, have about a 0% chance of being adopted by non-tech users).

Topic: to-do deadlines ... again

If 37s would follow McKinneyLaw and add all the asked features here on the forum,
the control panel of Basecamp would look like the interior of a 747 cockpit with all the buttons turned off since I only want a SMART car dashboard ;-)
http://www.smartenthusiast.com/gallery/files/1/0702_z2008_smart_fortwointerior.jpg

Topic: to-do deadlines ... again

In response to JPBs comments, I have plenty of to-dos that aren’t milestones that still have to be done by a certain date. It would be quicker and easier to put in a date for these to-dos when creating them rather than the current method of having to drag them around in the to-do list afterwards to reflect the order they need to be done in (and this still doesn’t let you know the actual date when a to-do has to be done by).

To-dos might be fine for you as they are, but there seem to be a whole load of people who don’t agree.As mckinneylaw points out, if the feature was added you could always choose not to use it.

Topic: to-do deadlines ... again

Bang. — You’re wrong. LOL

Having them won’t effect you. Just don’t use them.

—-—
JPB

Ps. ok, just start shooting now…. ;-)

Topic: to-do deadlines ... again

Once more: I am against completion dates for to-do’s !
I want Basecamp to stay simple.

You don’t need to-do completion dates.
If you use milestones.

Completion dates for to-do’s is a nice feature to keep you busy every morning starting to change them to the next day.
Some account managers earn their living with that.

Common don’t fool yourself – to-do completion dates are not going to get you the job done – it’s just adds more noise.

That’s the reason 37s does not include them.
And the video is a perfect example where 37s realises that to-do’s need to be pushed to the next day or week.
They just give an instruction in the subtitle comments “move them to the next week”. Smart ! (most companies organise a Monday meeting for that)
This is real life: to-do’s move and get pushed.
Milestones however need to be met.
How do you do that? It’s called late night work or more resources.

Keep it simple: to-do’s are fine for me as they are .

JPB

Ps. ok, just start shooting now…. ;-)

Topic: to-do deadlines ... again

Even the 37ers need to-do dates, their own video (http://www.basecamphq.com/demos/todos) shows there list titles with completion dates! This is no way to manage important projects.

+1

Topic: to-do deadlines ... again

Yes, please!

Topic: to-do deadlines ... again

We are a small web development and consulting agency and we have been using Basecamp for almost two years. We shifted from MS Project Server due to its complexity and long learning curve for new developers in addition to the higher maintenance costs. However, it has been a constant issue the lack of an overview and To-Do deadlines. I would just like to add my company vote to this matter. It would definitely make us much happier and more productive since 90% of our projects are composed of many small tasks and specific deadlines that need to be accomplished. Also, would please add to your feature request notes an “Everyone” report so that we don’t have to go back and forth or click on everybody’s name in order to see their tasks.

Topic: to-do deadlines ... again

+1/2 +1/2

Topic: to-do deadlines ... again

Any updates on this? This missing feature really makes me consider switch to another product (if I can find one).

Topic: to-do deadlines ... again

Just to make my post above a bit easier-to-read…

OPTIONAL CHUNKING
Multiple granular tasks that must be done one-right-after-the-other can be chunked into the title of a To-Do List
OR into a To-Do List with To-Do’s.

OPTIONAL TEMPLATES
Remember that your office can also make To-Do Templates if a series of tasks needs to be repeated.

EXAMPLE ENTRIES
My (personal and, yes, silly) example of this follows:

EXAMPLE MILESTONE
“Frank’s library books need to be returned!” on the Due Date

• “get online list of borrowed library books; renew books that can be renewed; get list of non-renewable books; find books; return books by Milestone date”

• Title of To-Do List: “Find Library books,”
  with five To-Do’s:

• “get online list of borrowed library books”;
• “renew books that can be renewed”;
• “get list of non-renewable books”;
• “find books”;
• and “return books by Milestone date.”

LINK THE TO-DO LIST TO THE MILESTONE,
SO THAT THE TO-DO LIST HAS A DUE DATE

Topic: to-do deadlines ... again

I agree. This feature must be added. I have missed several Todos in the past because I simply forgot about them. I can’t check through all project’s todo lists every day. I need due dates with warning emails.

Topic: to-do deadlines ... again

To RSDA’s interesting point defining Milestones as
”...universally understood to be the beginning or end of a major phase of a project…”

I thought that all of the functionality in Basecamp was meant to be as flexible as possible.

Because Basecamp is a tool that can be molded to what Basecamp users need to define,
features like Milestones can be used as
markers for major phases,
or even simple reminders in the calendar for the group.

That sounds okay, doesn’t it?

Topic: to-do deadlines ... again

+1

Definite benefit, surprised this wasn’t done ages ago. Highrise has it…

Topic: to-do deadlines ... again

BASECAMP ALREADY HAS DUE DATES FOR TO-DO’S

Huh?! It’s a little early to be drinking, isn’t it Franks?

1. Create a Milestone on the due date
2. Create a To-Do List
3. Edit the To-Do List and Relate-it to the Milestone in question.

I HOPE THIS HELPS
Please reply with a post if there are futher comments about this,
and for gosh sakes, try it yourself on a real Project or two -
you might make your office work faster and easier, right?
Have a sweet Sunday.

Topic: to-do deadlines ... again

IN DEFENSE OF CHUNKING
As I mentioned, chunking multiple To-Do’s into one has vastly improved the simplicity of our IRM Projects,
especially when multiple granular tasks must be done one-right-after-the-other in order to achieve an objective.

My (personal and, yes, silly) example of chunking five granular tasks is…

one To-Do called the following:

“get online list of borrowed library books; renew books that can be renewed; get list of non-renewable books; find books; return books by Milestone date”
BTW, this is how a handful of To-Do’s in our actual To-Do Templates at IRM are organized…and they work!

Just to reiterate, “people work the way they work,” and sometimes need the flexibility to complete one task out-of-order;
they’ll still get all tasks done at some point to finish the objective (check-marking the chunked To-Do, itself).

Thanks for continuing this great discussion about these ideas, y’all!
Chunking can be done for the title of a To-Do List,
or for a To-Do within a List.
It maintains the sequence of how work should get done,
while giving people the flexibility that is needed sometimes, eh?

Topic: to-do deadlines ... again

D. Waldman is right: the fundamental problem revolves around how 37S (and FranksIRM) conceive of a “milestone.”

Until I started using Basecamp over half a decade ago (when I first started requesting due dates for to-dos), I believed that a milestone was universally understood to be the beginning or end of a major phase of a project. “Start user testing” is a milestone. “Client review meeting” is a milestone. “Return three library books” is not a milestone.

I don’t understand how FranksIRM could possibly think that forcing co-workers to dig through a deep pile of granular and personal milestones could be beneficial. I want to quickly see when the next major phase of the project is coming up. I don’t want to nudge anyone to return their library books. With this level of granularity in milestones, the Dashboard becomes a study in absurdity and everything gets ignored.

Others have argued that there are workarounds. And there are. I myself have to use Remember the Milk (a free service with excellent email and iPhone integration) for to-dos with due dates. Like many others, however, I would prefer to have the option of doing this in Basecamp, a service for which I pay $50/month.

Topic: to-do deadlines ... again

https://www.treetopdb.com/ anybody?
i love it for deadlines to tasks/items

Topic: to-do deadlines ... again

I would strongly contest FranksIRM comments that Milestones are good enough. Yes, you can put to do items as milestones, but to dos are not milestones and there may be many to-do items for a milestone.

If I’m looking at the overall milestones view for all of our companies projects (which is normally well over 50 projects), I don’t want a view with hundreds of milestones that are really to-dos cluttering it up. A library book being returned is not a project milestone – if you went down the route of using milestones for to-dos, why have to-do items at all?

A to-do item with a date assigned to it makes an office work better as you can add to-do items whenever you want to, even if they’re not coming up for months, and then forget about them until you need to look at them. Using Outlook to-dos doesn’t work well as they’re separate from Basecamp, plus they’re not visible to everyone working on the project.

The other point to consider is that if to-dos have been added as milestones, when you look at the to-do list for the project they’re not there.

The idea of a system like Basecamp is to manage your work life and the also the work life of the other people working on the same projects. It should also allow managers to manage their staff and have an overview that is not cluttered with tasks that are trivial as far as they are concerned. It’s all about the right level of granularity for particular people.

There are ways of working around this (if there weren’t then we wouldn’t be using Basecamp), but that doesn’t make it right. Also, the more people and projects you have, the more problematic workarounds are.

Topic: to-do deadlines ... again

See above – 37S has no intention of adding this feature. If you need it (and we do) you can either use a Firefox add-on to work a hack that kind of gives you this functionality or you can find another product. We have been doing the former and are now unfortunately looking to do the latter.